War & Peace with Ann Sieg
Read More: The following is a series of post I (& others) made here on Better Networker, chronicling a real and tense conflict I had with Ann Sieg. This so called "War" involves legal threats, comments from top industry leaders including Mike Dillard, and 2 (maybe 3 sides) ready to do battle with social media...
A treasure trove of lessons came out of this 'war' and eventual peace with Ann Sieg, which will provide HUGE lessons for building and advertising your network marketing business.
This is all 100% true and happened exactly the way you see below.
Act I: The Hypocrisy of Ann Sieg
Posted 2/26/2009
So I wasn't sure if I even wanted to publicize this, but… What the hell? This needs to be said…
A couple of weeks ago I got an email from a gentleman named “Bernie the Lawyer”, claiming to be the legal representative for Ann Sieg and 80/20 Marketing, Inc. It was a "cease and desist" letter. Here it is in its full glory:
===================================
Dear Mr. Ceballos,
Please be advised that I represent Ann Sieg and her company, 80/20 Marketing, Inc. As you know, my client operates a well known marketing company, in part under the brand “Renegade Network Marketer,” that operates several different web sites and publishes materials for sale in the online marketing field. Ann Sieg has built a well-deserved positive and valuable reputation around the world as the result of her considerable time, expense and effort. My client is committed to defending her intellectual property and publicity rights to protect the goodwill that she has rightfully earned in the marketplace.
It has recently come to our attention that you are and have placed keyword advertisements on Google that trigger off of “Ann Sieg,” that you use the name “Ann Sieg” in the text of those advertisements, and that you feature the name “Ann Sieg” on your web site page located at
http://mlm.attractionmarketingformula.com/index2.php?gur=Ann%20Sieg&prod=Renegade%20Network%20Marketer&google=ann%20sieg. Your use of the name “Ann Sieg” is unauthorized and impermissibly suggests you have an affiliation with her. It is clear that your underlying purpose is to trade and profit off of the value that my client has created in her name.
Your actions constitute, without limitation, trademark infringement under the Lanham Act, unfair competition, and potentially false advertising, which can subject you to treble damages in the event that my client files a lawsuit against you. In addition, your use of my client’s name for commercial purposes constitutes a misappropriation of her name under California Civil Code §3344(a) which prohibits the use of someone’s name in advertising or for any commercial purpose without the prior permission of the person whose name is so used. An action against you under this provision may result in punitive damages, attorneys’ fees, costs, and the disgorgement of any profits you have made from the use of the name.
On behalf of my client, I hereby demand that you cease and desist from any use of the name “Ann Sieg,” whether as a Google keyword, in your advertisements, or on your web site. Please provide written assurance that you have removed all references to Ann Sieg from your web site(s) and advertisement campaigns no later than ten (10) days from the date of this letter. In the event that you choose not to comply, your actions will be deemed willful and I will be forced to advise me client to take appropriate legal action against you and to seek all available remedies, including punitive damages, injunctive relief, attorneys’ fees and costs.
The foregoing is without prejudice to any additional claims that my client may have or which may hereafter arise against you in the future. Nothing contained in this letter constitutes an express or implied waiver of any right or remedy, all of which are expressly reserved. I look forward to your prompt response.
Sincerely,
Bernard C. Dietz
Bernard C. Dietz, Esq.
==============================
Now there's some pretty strong language here, including the threat of lawsuits, damages and the use of a rusty jagged Rambo knife up my **you know what** if I don't comply. (Ok, I made up that last part).
I really was stunned and my initial gut reaction was to tell her and her “legal team” to take a flying leap off the top of the tallest MLM pyramid!
Especially considering that it’s not the first time she’s done this to someone on my team.
My buddy Joe got a similar letter last year, for doing an honest video review of her system, speaking on the good points and drawbacks. At the end of the video, he ends up recommending Magnetic Sponsoring over her system and she unleashed her “legal team”.
It was BS then and it’s BS now.
But before I did anything rash, I needed to think a little bit, so I had a refreshing glass of my best tequila as I played Gears of War 2 on my Xbox 360 to clear my mind… (So addicting!)
The Pot Calling the Kettle Black…
The first time I heard of Ann, I was new to the MLM world, had just been introduced to Magnetic Sponsoring, I was looking up some of the stuff people had written about the MLM company I was involved with at the time and saw a Google Ad that said:
[Company] Warning
Secrets About [Company]
Your Upline Won't Tell You!
AnnSieg.com
I clicked on her link and landed on a long sales letter, telling me to ditch my hotel meetings and pitching me a CD for $20 or whatever the price was.
I didn't buy the CD, but I remembered thinking to myself, "Who the hell is this lady?" Suddenly, I had my first major breakthrough as an internet marketer.
You see at the time I had struggled trying to get Adwords to work and had thrown away over $900 advertising on Google with no results. I was about ready to quit, but then I asked myself that magic question…
::Insert Hallelujah Music Here::
I immediately logged into Adwords and started a PPC campaign using her name as a keyword, (sound familiar?).
Her ads were plastered all over the place, basically telling people that their uplines were liars, which I knew would generate buzz and controversy.
You typed in any MLM company into Google and her PPC ad showed up saying:
[Company Name] Warning
Secrets About [Company Name]
Your Upline Won't Tell You!
AnnSieg.com
(Yep, she was using the company name in her ads. Where’s “Bernie the lawyer” when you need him?)
Now if I was asking myself, "Who the hell is this lady?" then certainly many other people would also be asking this same question, considering the amount of PPC advertising she was doing.
People were searching the term "Ann Sieg" like mad, wondering who the hell she was.
This keyword shortcut of advertising on PPC, by having company names and gurus trigger the ad, was probably the single most effective thing I did my first few months marketing online.
Who could be more targeted than people who had already invested in a business and probably not having much luck with their current leadership? People who like me, agreed that MLM was a good thing.
Do As I Say, Not As I Do... or Else I'll SUE!
Now 3 years later, I'm receiving a cease and desist letter from her attorney, which is ridiculous, considering that she used the exact same strategy when I first ran into her.
In fact, she’s been using this strategy for the past 3 years and even teaches it to her students.
So before taking any action, I wanted to see how deep the “poop” actually went, so I took out my handy-dandy PPC spy tools and what I found would make the folks at CSI proud…
I found archived data (Exhibit A) showing that AnnSieg.com had advertised on over 2,000 MLM related and TRADEMARKED company terms with the exact same ad copy she used 3 years ago when I first saw her ad:
Real Life Example on a Trademarked Term (according to SpyFu):
Secrets about Pre-Paid Legal
Your Upline Won't Tell You
AnnSieg.com
Triggered by the keyword "pre paid legal", according to SpyFu. This exact ad having last been archived as recently as 01/01/2009 and as of 2/26/09 looks like this on a recent search I did:
Pre-Paid Legal Warning
Secrets about Pre-Paid Legal
your upline won't tell you!
RenegadeMLM.com/Pre-Paid_Legal.html
(BTW, if you are a Pre-Paid Legal executive, I hear “Bernie the lawyer” has lots of experience sending out cease and desist letters. I have his contact info, if you need it.)
And the Poop Gets Even Deeper...
My good bud and PPC Master, (let's call him Mr. Y), showed me something interesting he ran across during his PPC market research months ago...
If you visit, http://www.annsieg.com/company_1.html (Exhibit B)
... you'll notice the use of the TRADEMARKED term, Arbonne, on the very sales letter she uses to sell Renegade Network Marketer. If you'd like to see other letters, feel free and replace the number "1" in the link with any number going all the way up to 217 (GlobalWon Reps).
Recently, she seems to have switched her domain and is now directing traffic to: http://www.renegademlm.com/us_d/Pre-Paid_Legal.html
[If you'd like to see if your network marketing company made the cut of "important enough to advertise on", see below for the complete company list (Exhibit C) and all other exhibits]
My Response to “Bernie the Lawyer”…
So after consulting with some leaders in the industry and legal counsel, I decided to respond to the attorney, about 10 days after I got the email (per their request) and share a few details to Bernie about his famous client...
=====================================
Mr Dietz,
The ad has been paused, for now pending legal counsel.
This is by no way an admission that we've done anything wrong or illegal.
On another note, Ann Sieg, has profited and used registered trademarks owned by individuals, and of large network marketing corporations over the past 3 years and as late as Dec. 2008.
Attached is a data dump from a 3rd party service who monitors pay-per-click advertising and logs a history of PPC advertising done on Google.
I would think you might be able to acquire more clients if you send the same cease and desist letter to your own client on behalf of the 1000's of MLM company names she's profited from who actually have their names trademarked.
Regards,
Fernando
=======================
Damn! That Felt Good, But I Think I Was Too Nice…
At this point, I’m thinking of all the cool people who's names I’ve used as a Google Keyword when I was a newbie doing PPC advertising, rarely would anyone complain. Most were flattered. Many are friends and mentors.
If you do a search right now for Magnetic Sponsoring or Mike Dillard, (the #1 guy in this industry), you’ll notice that everyone in the MLM industry uses “Mike Dillard” or “Magnetic Sponsoring” as a keyword trigger, in their ads and on their landing pages.
I’ve never once heard him bitch about it, much less send a threat of suit for using his freakin’ name as a keyword or ad. Mike is the most secure guy I know. He’s comfortable in his own skin and it would be silly for him to feel threatened by a Google ad generating a few clicks a day for a networker with a dream.
This technique is probably the quickest and simplest way for any newbie to gain some traction.
That’s how we started, and we’ve since produced awesome results via other mediums such as SEO, Social Media among other traffic sources.
Want Some Targeted Traffic?
It’s funny, now that Ray and I have made a little bit of a name for ourselves, I've noticed a few folks advertising under our names on Google…
And you know what? I want to see more ads!
Actually, if you are reading this and have not done a single thing with Adwords, feel free to use my name "Ferny Ceballos" or "Fernando Ceballos" for your first PPC ad. I promise there will be some good targeted traffic.
Just don't say anything negative. And even if you do, I'll probably just email you personally and kindly ask you change the ad, which is what Ann Sieg should have done to begin with.
This is how the conversation would have gone:
Ann: Hey Ferny, nice to talk to you.
Ferny: Same here. How can I help you, Ann?
Ann: Hey umm… do you mind taking down or changing that Google ad using my name. I don’t want to confuse my customers. I’d really appreciate it.
Ferny: Sure, Ann. No problem.
… then continue talking about normal “guru” stuff.
Instead, she sends Bernie to come bark at us on her behalf and makes threats, which is a bit crass for a first introduction. I mean you might as well light a bag of dog poop on fire on my front porch and issued a declaration of war.
Personal Invitation to Ann Sieg…
So for as long as Ann’s legal team harasses networkers for a few Google ads, I’m going to demand a response from Ann herself regarding this.
Personally, I have an affinity for the days when dueling was legal and disputes were settled honorably... or you at least contacted the person directly to settle it.
But then again, it’s not too late…
I’m inviting Ann Sieg to use the medium of social media to state her case as to why it is ok for her to use trademarked terms on her webpages and ads, (and teach her affiliates to do this) yet threaten suit against networkers using her name, which is NOT trademarked.
I see no better place to do this than on BetterNetworker... right here on this page.
-Ferny Ceballos
SEONetworker.com (Oh, you can also use "SEO Networker" as a keyword too!)
Exhibit A - SpyFu Data Dump
Exhibit B - Link to Company Specific Landing Pages on AnnSieg.com
Exhibit C - List of Companies used in Landing Pages on AnnSieg.com
Disclaimer: Use the above mentioned PPC strategies at your own discretion. I am not responsible if "Bernie the lawyer" comes after you for taking Ann's advice.
Act II: Ferny & Ann Sieg Talk for the 1st Time
Posted 3/6/2009
So it might surprise many of you to hear that I just finished a hour long phone conversation with Ann Sieg and her son (biz partner) Isaiah.
We've decided to settle our differences with an intense Xbox LIVE game of Gears of War 2 - Death Match style!!!
just kidding. ;)
It was a very cordial conversation, we openly discussed how things had led up to this and we both took responsibility for our respective contribution to this shitstorm and have decided to move forward in a more positive direction... ::stay tuned for more::
And by "positive" I mean that her 24-year old son Isaiah will be filling in for mom in a no holds barred Xbox LIVE Death Match game of Gears of War 2. Tickets go on sale soon! (Actually I think this might be a real possibility... after their launch of course) ;)
Will post more details tomorrow...
-Ferny
Act III: Ferny & Ann Sieg Make Peace!
Posted 3/8/2009
So after a long and arduous battle (1 week), many casualties (our time) and the pillaging of many villages (BN forums) -- Ann Sieg and Ferny Ceballos have called a truce -- thanks to the peace making efforts of Mike Klingler.
This is a 40-minute mp3 recording Ann and Ferny recently conducted, openly discussing the issues surrounding the controversy, the valuable lessons learned and a surprising announcement about how Ferny & Ann will be working together in the future.
A Candid Conversation Between Ann Sieg and Ferny Ceballos
(right click, select 'save as...")
I want to thank Ann for emailing me requesting a call to resolve the issue, providing the space for both of us to accept responsibility for our respective contributions to it and agreeing to work with me on future trainings born out of the conflict.
These future trainings will address important lessons learned related to PPC Advertising, the Power of Social Media, MLM Legal and Conflict Resolution.
For more information about Ann or Ferny, please visit their websites:
http://www.annsieg.com
http://www.fernyceballos.com
To Be Continued...
About the Author: Ferny Ceballos
Company: Attraction Marketing Formula, LLC.
I'm a Distributor For:: Wealth Masters International
Industry: Consulting
Primary Web Site: http://SEONetworker.com
Well Said Rebuttal Ferny
Excellent job on the rebuttal Ferny.
I agree it is quite hypocritical of her to send out letters like that when she (while it is merely marketing to emotions to stir up controversy) states in her PPC ads that many "uplines in MLM are withholding information from us".
I believe she even writes in her back office training about how she advertises under other company names and how its controversial.
Good luck my friend.
Cease and Desist
Google went to court over this. They were asked by the court to impose trademark laws on ad copy but NOT on keywords.
No one has the right to tell you you can't target a certain market with advertising. That's what PPC is all about.
If her name is so important to her, why doesn't she just file her trademark with Google and have them automatically protect her name from being used in ads? Many others are doing it effectively.
Jim
The Best Fight's the One That Transforms Into an Alliance
I can understand. No one enjoys getting a letter like that. At the same time, looking at it from the other side, it's also reasonable why someone will want to protect their brand. Some believe there is a distinction between marketing with the use of a person's name vs. a company name--and still, companies can and often do exercise legal recourse to protect their brand as well.
In my mind, there's nothing wrong with using a company name (or a person's name) when marketing a competing product, but there's nothing wrong with someone trying to stop it either.
I received a similar letter from Mike Dillard last year on the same subject. I took a deep breath and tried to look at the situation through his eyes. I apologized for any misunderstanding and made an adjustment in my marketing with his concerns considered. Now I can look forward to working with Mike in the future as a friend, or through a friendly alliance at the least.
After the dust settles we remember we'll only be on the planet for a short time--we're all on the same team--or we can be.
I'm sure if Ann and you were hangin' out a bit more this wouldn't feel so intense. It's one of the disadvantages of the net I suppose... a lot of distance can create misunderstanding and a difference in perception.
I sit this one out but encourage the teams to play the game remembering, we may not be here tomorrow... we most certainly will NOT be here for long. May not be a significant factor for some, but for me it's a big influence on how I end up playin' the game we call life and business.
Mike
Someone should sell tickets to the rumble...
Haha, good stuff Ferny. The letter I got was a bit different (copyright infringement, etc) and she banned me from her affiliate system immediately.
The best part is that I've still received a few commission checks from the leads that I built in her system and the actions of my second tier.
Truth be told, some people do very well with her system, but I wasn't one of them. It's pretty disheartening to be getting 5-10% CTR on your ads and then having a conversion rate well below 1%. That's why I did the slightly negative review to begin with.
Who Cares
People will advertise under your company. They will advertise under your name. Who gives a damn. It's marketing.
If you provide true value to people, they will ALWAYS see through the smoke.
Commotion
Well, if it was up to me I'd throw all of you in jail for waking me up from my slumber. The BN alarms started going off with all the traffic we suddenly got. I thought it was a cyber attack.
Regardless. I hate lawyers. I hate marketers. I hate Google. I'm only doing this to get by during the recession...
For law enforcement you only need 2 things, a cop, a gun and nightstick... ok, 3 things.
Evidence is optional, but that can always be planted. The only thing that matters is that I know you are guilty.
Now if you excuse me, I have a anger management class in the morning.
Carl
Its a technique... just be nice about it.
Great article Ferny. I can't even remember where I first read about using the names of well known people in your search but I can see there is definitely a legal boundary that can be approached if you start using people's names in a negative way.
You've pointed it out in your article too which is great. Its ok to say:
Ferny Ceballos Rocks!
Find out why Ferny is the greatest thing since humans walked upright by clicking here.
And much less ok to say:
Rick Henderson is a scam
Don't waste your money like I did. Find out why!
(gotta be careful about what you write on a website after all).
It appears to be a common technique and I wonder who started it, but really even starting an ad campaign saying [Company ABC] is a scam can get you in hot water I would think.
If I could, I would focus on driving traffic using positive phrasing techniques as much as possible.
Although nowadays, the search terms "Ferny Ceballos" and "Mike Dillard" probably cost a pretty penny :)
*Rick goes to check.*
Commotion
Carl, be EAAAAAAAAASY! Go back to sleep!
Nicely Presented Ferny
Hey Ferny,
I'll be honest, I don't have enough PPC experience, or am aware of the rules and things to completely take a side. But I am keenly interested, and want to know as much as I can because this will effect my beginning attempts at PPC.
You have presented a compelling case here Ferny. And I admit, I was affected on an emotional level by your writing. The nerve...
I would be surprised if Ann Sieg came into this "turf" and provided a response.
I only have one opinion...as someone who considers Mike Klingler - and we're aware of Mike's close affiliation with Ann - and You (Ferny Ceballos) to be my teachers, the top dogs I have learned the most from, I find it disapointing to see these "disputes."
I would love to see you two powerhouses come together, and each present your case in a collaborative and educational manner. But I understand that that takes time and effort, and I know for a fact that you both are busier than ever. But that's truly "swallowing the market whole."
Ferny, you are one the most intelligent and charismatic marketers out there...I would encourage you to call Ann herself, and simply ask, What gives? Right the wrong.
Living in the Layers, Not on the Litter.
I enjoyed reading this, thank you.
"Fernando Ceballos" Thanks
Ferry
I also listen to a radio show on Aces LIve Radio with Jim Gillhouse. ( both I know I have permission to use as keywords and say here ) Ann refused to show for the interview about the marketing tactics she uses but she is even quicker to unleash her puppy BERNIE.
I have put up with these tacics for years. I am a major upline in several companies but I have never withheld anything from my downline as she has said.
IE:
Secrets about XXXXX
Your Upline Won't Tell You
AnnSieg.com
As one of these uplines since she wants to (need to use she so I do not miss use her name) say I lie and will not tell my downline everything I am asking other uplines in other companies to think about possible does of her own medicine. File a class action suit in Federal court fo Defaming our names and positions with these tactic and what ever else we can find in the Federal laws and the start state actions also. I would wonder what she would say then, or even
Secrets about “Renegade Network Marketer,”
Your Upline Won't Tell You
xxxx.com
Gee that sound good. Oh well already spent too much time on HER.
I stand behind you Ferry Great article
Dr Robin
WOW!
Nothing like a little bantering to wake up to and enjoy with my morning cup of coffee!
Ferny,
You are either one of the dingiest human beings to write this for all to see or one of the most brilliant marketers we've seen in a while! I'm going with the latter!
I'm relating this situation to going to the grocery store and picking up one of those gossipy tabloid magazines. Chances are what is being said isn't the whole truth but hey, they got their names on the front cover!
Kudos for getting your name out there and the reading of your article and the comments that follow have been quite delightful and entertaining! I look forward to following this as it picks up speed.
The price of your name in the keywords just doubled!
Hoo-Rah!! ~ LeeAnn
RE:
I agree Mike, and that's a great response. But the difference between us, is that I contacted you personally and we worked it out. I think that's what Fernando is suggesting here.
For the record, I don't send out "lawyer letters" to anyone who uses my name.
Unfortunately I agree with Fernando on this, and commend him for having the courage to speak his mind. She has no business sending out letters like that when she's doing the exact same thing.
I don't mind if she continues to advertise like that, but the letters need to stop. I think she needs to read YOUR response here and take some of that advice...
Life is too short to send "Bernie" out to scare people over something so silly.
Mike
You could have warned me to have my morning coffee first!
I stand decisively on the fence here! Two of my mentors at odds - I hate that. . I hope this works out for both of you and you are able to come out of this way ahead.
I'm with Mike - find ways you can support each other and get past the bad stuff. Your loyal and grateful students will the ones to gain the most when each of you can spend your valuable time doing what you do best - sharing your incredible knowledge and gifts for growing a business.
Great to get good training
Just glad we'll be getting some good training- creative response!
It's All About Integrity...
Your words and actions have to line up. If they don't then it will hurt your reputation. To say one thing and then do the exact opposite is just not a smart thing for her to do.
I remember when Mike Dillard first launched MLM Traffic Formula. He said it would only be available until this date and time and then the order page was coming down. I bought before that time but I watched his actions very closely to see if he was true to his word. If he kept it up longer and made excuses why etc, then I would have been done with him and never trusted him again. But he didn't... he kept his word... I now own all of his products.
So the next time I see some sales letter from Ann chances are pretty good I'm not going to believe her no matter what she says. She's lost credibility with me.
Integrity is important in business, espeically if you're in it for the long haul.
Blue Skies,
Jeff
Well said Fernando
You'll have to give me the juicy details by phone sometime ;). Anyway, I didn't even know you could trademark your own name or otherwise prevent use of it in advertising. Didn't we all see a Pepsi vending machine get demolished in a Coke ad and vice versa? Seriously, lay off Ann!
Her actions did her more damage in the industry than your ad ever did.
Talk to you soon boss
Value Sucker or Creator?...
Just goes to show you the power of a Community
Personally, I would love to see Ann rebuttle to this. I know that that was the first direct response ad I ever clicked on in the MLM world. It was my first sales letter I ever read and I even made a few affiliate commissions selling her stuff.
Frankly, I'm just disappointed in her.
And...
Amazed ad how far people will go in being consumers and just trying to blame everyone else to protect their lack of desire to create more value.
What I mean is, why doesn't she just innovate and rise above it. She has probably determined that it is easier for her to spend money on a legal team sending cease and desist letters than it is for her to actually turn on her brain and get a little more creative and competitive with her keyword research, her PPC strategies, and heaven forbid create a new product or an alliance with you.
I'm excited to see if she actually has the courage to respond here and ultimately which community proves more valuable.
I am pretty confident that the better networkers, will in truth be bigger people about this. And, sorry Mike but this has nothing to do with how cool you are. It has everything to do with the principles you and everyone on your team follow. (which I admit make you pretty cool)
You all just create a lot more value than anyone else for your comunity, and that is super powerful.
As for Berny, the best legal/business advice he has recieved in years must have been yours ferny, he could have a heck of a lot more clients if he sat on the other side of the table.
AJ
I'm grateful Mike Dillard tweeted this
I still consider myself a newbie. I have been online as a marketer for less than a year.
I found Ann Sieg when I was researching PPL. As you point out, she employs the very tactic her attorney admonished you about.
Even though I am careful to read and download TOS, it is easy to forget them when you are confronted by so many offenders. How would you find out if Ann Sieg or anyone else has copyrighted their name?
I got my own "cease and desist" notification (not from Ann) in December. It felt like I being hit with an electrical charge. Of course, this was the very response the attorney was aiming for. I set about removing every article I had published on the company.
But unlike Ms. Sieg, I was not calling into question the marketing strategy of that company. In fact, as others have done with Mike Dillard's Magnetic Sponsoring, I was trying to broadcast the value of that company's service. All the while I was removing these articles, I kept wondering to myself how I had harmed that company.
I still don't know. But I'm glad you've taken the time to share this cautionary tale. This is definitely a "heads up" for affiliate marketers especially.
Past or Future
Ferny,
First of all, thank you for sharing. Transparent is the new pink. In order to survive in this new economy, you must be transparent. I commend you my brother.
Second, you can either live in the past, the present or the future.
Marketers/Entrepreneurs live in the future. New ideas. Breaking new ground. Trying new things. Making mistakes. Learning from them. Staying in motion. Modifying. Correcting. Looking forward. Vision.
Production/Manufacturing lives in the present (we all must live here some of the time). Product development. Supply. Shipping. Customer service. Income. Expenses. Cash flow. The business of doing business.
Legal/Accounting lives in the past. Trademark infringement. Intellectual property. Asset protection. Litigation. Taxes. Accounts receivable. Accounts payable. Audits.
This is a concept I learned at the last Rich Dad event in Arizona. I had never thought about these business organizations this way before.
Don't get me wrong. All are important. The question is, where are you spending your time? Where are you focusing your energy?
It is sad to see a person or organization with an entrepreneurial spirit slowly engulfed by legal and accounting. It is sad when decisions are slowly made more and more by attornies and accountants, opposed to the leader/entrepreneur of the organization, keeping the focus on the past instead of the future.
John
Interesting discussion!
Interesting discussion! Maybe a little perspective is required. It's amazing to me how seductive this social media phenomenon is, even more so now than ever. You begin to feel that what's going on inside your online community is the whole world.
Believe it or not, I never ran across the name that's being bandied about in this thread until I started seeing it in all sorts of negative headlines here.
I can understand being angered by a letter like that, and sure, I was very entertained by Ferny's response. In fact, Ferny you have a brilliant way with words! You are rapidly becoming one of my favorite commentators on this industry--dare I say mentor?
Maybe I only feel this way because I haven't received a letter like that, or used the tactics that would draw one, but it seems to me that creating success by negative marketing tactics is bad karma, no matter who does it. I can say that it hurts even the little guys that are associated with whoever is being put down, and it hurts the whole industry.
Come on guys, if someone who is new to the concept of network marketing goes to the internet to do research on a company, what do they search on? [company name] scam. Does anything good come from a search like that? No! So they keep searching, next company, next company. After a few, they conclude that the whole concept is a scam and that person is never going to acheive financial freedom. Do you want that on your conscience?
If your product won't stand on it's own merits, find one that will. Don't promote it by negative comparison with something else, please. It hurts us all.
scare tactics have never felt rite to me
being new to this industry & coming from a offline service industry business, I have been tempted by many a customer to bash the competition, especially when they have called me after a bad experience with the previous contractor, I ask questions about what happened, to see where I may be able to improve upon what they " the customer" had a problem with. Competition is what drives any business to get better, If someone copies what I have done in the past, so be it! So feel free to use my name if you think it will get you some traffic! Your reputation is secure in my eyes as somenone with great integerity & honesty Mike & BN. If your scared someones going to take that reputation away from you, you shouldnt be in business! I look forward to being copied, its kinda of a form of flattery
So you CAN'T do that????........lol
I'm not a total newbie at all - more like a up-and-coming success....
but I haven't used AdWords yet (even though I keep telling my girlfriend to learn it for me so I don't have to outsource...lol)
I ALWAYS saw ad's that say things like "XXXX sucks - Join a real team". At first I though it was wrong, but after seeing so many I figured it was ok. I've never seen any "nasty" ad's....but I mean c'mon - you have to kinda diss the other guy and commend yourself - IN THOSE TYPE OF AD'S.
(just not in a nasty way)
Ferny, I think your standing up for yourself by putting yourself out there - THE TRUTH ALWAYS COMES TO THE LIGHT! ALWAYS! And my friend you've done some great research to get it...lol
Hypocritical as it may be - I think it may be a sense of jealousy for the NEW BREED of Internet Marketers.
One more thing - Doens't this whole thing have EVERYTHING to do with LEVERAGE?
Just my 2 Lincolns. (both 1984) lol
Choosing Wisely
I'm new to the whole online marketing scene. When I began my search to educate myself about online marketing I had no clue about marketing strategies, systems, etc. Everything looked alike, sounded alike, and I had to step back and look beyond all of that and make a choice regarding who I was going to follow.
I did look at Ann Sieg's system, but it was because she "lured" me in with her negative comments about the business I was in. I was curious to understand why someone would market their own business using this negative approach. This is when and why I decided NOT to buy into her system.
I am grateful to have found Mike Dillard and I believe I have chosen wisely as you all have too. I've experienced sincerity, encourgment, integrity, honesty, value, and leadership. As Mike said in Magnetic Sponsoring, "People do not join a business, they join YOU." Thanks Mike for being a great example to follow.
As for Ann Sieg, sorry to say but the principle applies, "You reap what you sow."
Thanks Ferny for sharing your experience and giving me more wisdom today. I know you'll rise above this and it's gonna work out in your favor.
Have a great day everyone!
why spend so many words on that
twit some shit and that it jjjjjjjjjj
http://www.twitter.com/idoitbigtime
Very Interesting
I agree with Ferny, it is pretty hypocritical to threaten someone for using the SAME exact strategy that you used to get where you are. However, I think that there are two questions that we really need to be asking ourselves that are more important than whether Ann is being hypocritical here...
1. Legally does she have a case?
2. Where do you draw the line here?
I looked at that civil code that the attorney included in the letter...
http://www.leginfo.ca.gov/cgi-bin/displaycode?section=civ&group=03001-04000&file=3344-3346
Now I'm no attorney (in fact, I'm going to call my Pre-Paid Legal law firm and ask about this as soon as I'm done here), but it looks like taking an inital read of that law, she does have a case here. If you put her name on your web site knowingly, that's advertising and selling and you are in violation of that code.
As for the 2nd question, where do you draw the line here? If we write a review (positive or negative) about a person or a network marketing company and then I add a signature link at the bottom of it, are we in violation of this policy? If we do a video review about the same, are we in volation of this policy? These are the more important questions to ask because the answers can have major implications on how internet network marketing is done going forward.
Roosevelt Cooper 631-615-4541
Free report - How to create an endless stream of prospects
Free Blog - Lots of free network marketing articles + content
I liked your approach
Well said Fernando!! It's nice seeing someone standing up against bullies!
Giselle
One More Thing
By the way Ferny, you might be in more trouble here! You just used Ann Sieg's name on this web site and there's a link to your profile where you have links to your web site. Is that going to be another violation that Berny is going to write a letter to you about? LOL!
Also, I was looking at that code again and found something quite interesting...
(d) For purposes of this section, a use of a name, voice,
signature, photograph, or likeness in connection with any news,
public affairs, or sports broadcast or account, or any political
campaign, shall not constitute a use for which consent is required
under subdivision (a).
So I'm guessing as long as you can spin the use of their name as "news" you can get away with it. Not sure how you can do that in your case, but for others who are using this strategy, this might be a work around.
Roosevelt Cooper 631-615-4541
Free report - How to create an endless stream of prospects
Free Blog - Lots of free network marketing articles + content
Do What's Best For Our Industry
Ferney I fell you on this one nothing worst than having your work attacked.I would have been pissed off myself 10-15 years ago.Its funny how wisdom comes with age.I'm sorry to see that Ann took such a defensive approach.
I think the best thing for both parties to do here is communicate with each other,squash your differences and move on.Ferney I've learned a lot from you and will continue to do so in the future.This industry is to important at this time to have our leaders at odds with each other.
And I do consider you a leader ferney,along with Ann Sieg,Mike Dillard and Mike Klingler.All of whom I have learned a great deal from.Time has a wonderful way of working things out, I say we all have a beer let off some steam and work things out, in the best interest of our industry.
What Are We Coming To
My goodness, this is not what we want to hear. But, on the other hand we needed to hear this as well. Due to the nature of the "problem", many other marketers should learn and see that not everyone takes things the same way. I also feel that there is a lesson to be learned in this because we can see some of the errors that can easily be made in this industry. Use this as a learning experience as you move forward in your business.
Jimmy Williams
The Methodical Marketer
Where's Ann?
Wouldn't it be nice for Ann Sei--(oops! almost infringed on you-know-who) to step into the light of everyone watching, to explain her actions in her own words?
Aa' annnnnnn. . .....
Come out, come out, where ever you are !